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had a two-fold intent, which was to create a role model in the idea of a girl who's a genuine leader and the role model in a man who is not only comfortable, but turned on by that. (Joss Whedon)

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Discussion Forum

Does Spike need a Soul? 9 Replies

Started by latoya. Last reply by cil domney Sep 1, 2014.

Essays & Articles 37 Replies

Started by cil domney. Last reply by cil domney Apr 21, 2014.

Spuffy Season 6 Dailies 40 Replies

Started by Veiriti. Last reply by Isis Nocturne Feb 2, 2013.


Started by Itoy247. Last reply by Isis Nocturne Dec 17, 2011.

The Important Spuffy Episodes Discussion 47 Replies

Started by Lulurose. Last reply by cil domney Jun 19, 2011.

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Comment by Itoy247 on May 22, 2010 at 10:33am
love that last idea Veiry...the power of the truest love...romantic and not likely since Joss is so stubborn and the writers are so bangel (eww)
i know this is a joke, but i really hate the sex idea...i wouldn't like for Spike and Buffy to have some lame excuse for another sex show in the comics...but for love...that would be sweet :)
Comment by Veiriti on May 22, 2010 at 10:21am
Hey, guys I’ve read something funny on Slayalive, but it made me to speculate about it – What if Buffy and Angel sex open the Twilight dimension, but Buffy and Spike to close it back in the same way – having a sex! LOL B/A sex was the key to that dimension, and the rift is not closed yet. So what if Willow, or Giles, or someone else to find out that S/B sex could generate energy or some energy shield which will stop the demon’s invasion in our world?
But putting the joke aside – I don’t think that Angel is redeemed, only because he decided in the last moment to release Buffy and to help them. When Buffy finds out some details about Angel’s “Master plan” to open that dimension only for them and to doomed her friends and the whole world to havoc and demolition, because of their happiness?! Will she continues to live with a man like that, even if she has strong feelings for him? I doubt. And Angel didn’t do that under some magic, or evil influence… I think he probably found out about that yin-yang thing between a vampire and slayer and a possibility to being with her forever and using the resources of W&H – books, spells, the army, he decided to fulfill his plan, doesn’t matter the price. Angel made this selfish plan to have Buffy only for himself. Maybe he didn’t expect the apocalypse as a side-effect, but I doubt. And his plan probably has included some unholy deal to make him strong and invulnerable… which has ruined his humanity and maybe his soul… I doubt Buffy will accept the Angel’s selfish “sacrifice” even he did it for her, in the name of their love (or in the name of his twisted vision of their love!)… As Enny said below – Good buy Bangel! LOL
About Spike and Buffy - well, I'm not sure about the sex thing between to help to close the rift, but why not their love – these two holding their hands again and it generates a power which could close the rift and to stop the demons – that would be epic – the power of the truest love! Even better than the sex! ;)
Comment by Veiriti on May 22, 2010 at 10:09am
Here is the comment about the last S/B scene: (I've posted the link of whole comments in "Interviews" topic ):
[Their hands burst into flames]

I thought that this was a sort of romantic image, the two of them. We actually did it with real fire but their hands were all gelled up and you could tell, so this was added CGI, and looks beautiful. I thought it was a nice comment on their relationship. But what I basically told them was "Play the romance. Be proud of him. Love him when you say you love him. Love her when you say she doesn't love you. Forget about the crumbling world. For that period of time it doesn't exist."
Comment by Itoy247 on May 22, 2010 at 9:12am
i've read this comment before...but i never really saw it as "they can never be lovers again". i took it more as that at this time, this phase ...they're still mending the broken pieces of their relationship, and it's the wrong time to jump into bed and have sex...there was trust, there was love...but for them to be able to be together -if they were going to be someday- that needs a little bit more time but its not not going to happen...actually whenever i thought about what would happen if Spike made it out of the hellmouth...i can always see their relationship moving forward to the point where they were actually together...but i don't know... maybe i'm wrong :S
don't get me wrong, i don't want Spike and Buffy sex in the comics or anything...its still the wrong time now since they still have a lot of talking and shouting to do. Not now...But not Never either...they could get there if they wanted to
Comment by Spike's KittyKat on May 22, 2010 at 7:44am
That comment was actually made in Joss's interview concerning Chosen. That's why he faded to black.

"[Spike and Buffy lie down on his bed together to sleep]"

"The idea behind their sleeping together was very important. It was that their relationship had enough trust in it; that it was physical and romantic but not sexual. That was, of course, in response to the rape issue of last year, when he had attempted to rape her because he didn't understand the boundaries of their relationship--he was soulless. But having gotten his soul and having fought to become a person, we wanted to say that this man can be redeemed from that.

Not -and I've said this before, but I'll say this again- not in a Luke and Laura "he rapes her and they get married" way. Not in an "all is forgiven" way. Just in a way that he's still a human being. I think that's a very important message, that their relationship should be complicated, and yet come to a place of trust. WIthout saying "Okay, they're going to become lovers again"; because I think that would be wrong. I think that's the wrong message. It's a very thin line."

Then after a few questions he comments this about the fade to black scene.

"[Buffy goes downstairs to see Spike]"
"And this bit here I did actually add on set. Not just the picture of Butthead on the punching bag but this, where I said I wanted to get a couple of shots. We were going fast - and that one, I didn't know if I was going to use the two of them. And to me it's almost the most important shot because it really shows the mystery of their relationship. And that's one where I wanted the audience to fill in the blanks. I wanted them - I wanted whatever you wanted to have happen, to have happened. If people wanted to believe that on their last night together they made love, great! If they believe that on their last night together they talked all night, great! If they believe they had a fight, great! "

This is also the same commentary that states that she should love him when you say you love him. It's the audio commentary by Joss for the episode Chosen on the boxset.
Comment by Itoy247 on May 22, 2010 at 6:53am
it has been stated many times online that Joss Whedon said that after the AR there can never be a sexual reunion of the two characters.

I think there might be a misunderstanding here...maybe Joss stated that sometime early season seven but I don't think it was a definite statement...because when he was asked about Spike and Buffy's last night together (the fade to black scene) he said something like "it could be anything, they could have made love, they could have talked all night and they could have fought" so he included the possibility of Spike and Buffy making love during their last night together...that would be a huge contradiction if his statement was a definite one. It will also be weird after the nights Buffy spent sleeping in Spike's arms.
One more thing is Buffy fantasizing Spike in her dream with that nurse outfit…if Buffy was still so sensitive about that issue then fantasies would be out of question too.
Besides, I don't really think Joss wanted to kill the Spuffy relationship with that scene…I read a fan analyses once that was IMO really great…he said that Joss wanted us to disagree with what Spike did yet he wanted us to understand him so that we can forgive him …that fan pointed out to Spike's appearance without the duster and the usual black tight t-shirt…he said that although Spike usually muster the predator look wearing that black coat that was the shield to hide his vulnerability, in this scene he took it off…also with the start of the scene by the soft apology for hurting her and telling her he cares about her and the tears in his eyes. It was like Joss didn't want us to see neither the vampire nor a rapist then, he wanted us to see the hurt, frustrated and desperate man who does something wrong and stupid in an attempt to keep the woman he loved and feared to lose …to feel sympathy for that man despite his very wrong action… the disbelief in his eyes when she pushed him away. Everything about that scene says that it was designed to get Spike to take such a huge step as to get his soul back, period. Not to break the contact between him and Buffy emotionally or physically…at least that how I see it
Comment by Maria Lopez - Fiztgerald on May 22, 2010 at 4:36am
it has been stated many times online that Joss Whedon said that after the AR there can never be a sexual reunion of the two characters.

I'm sorry but I disagree whit that statment I really do.So he is saying that having a sexual relationship between them can never happen because of the AR but Bangel having sex in IWR after Angel tortured her and her friends and killed someone her Watcher/father fugure loved is not a bad message.If he really think that it's a complete bullshit.Spike did everything he could so he could to never hurt Buffy again and Angel did nothing.Spike was always the none who had to fight for things:he fought Angel because of Drusilla,he fought so he could be accepted by Buffy and the scoobies but he never could ebcause they always told him how dissgusting he was,he was used by Buffy and abused by he to such an extent that he didn't realise what he was about to do in Seeing Red but than he got a soul so he could be abetter man for her and when he came back everyone was therating him to stay alway from Buffy because he tried to rape her whitout knwoing the full story and Buffy didn't even tell her frineds what in truth was between them and that she in fact was the monster but again she spent her whole summer trayning Dawn and living her life while Spike was probaby going crazier and crazier.
As for Angel:he never did anything to be a good man,he was forced to be one.He tortured and got Drusilla insane and when he truned her she fell in his arms,teh same happened whit Buffy.The only thing he had to do was play the misterious and later tortured man and he got ''When you kiss me I want to die''line.After everything he did in s2 he was never judjed by Buffy or any of her friends(they may have been against Angel in the start but than they didn't have any problem),her watcher which too was against it in the start but than accept it evenhough he killed the woman he loed(but he had the nerve to tray and kill Spike when he didn't do anything to him),Buffy fell in his arms alsmot immidiatlly.
I'm just sick and tired of Spike always beeing the second best.That's why I love fanfiction because there at leastvthe authors know that Buffy's relationship whit Angel was distructive and it detsroyed her for years and Spike was the one who saved her and teached ehr how to loe again.I think that's womthing JW will never admit at leats the bangel beeing a distructie relationship part.And I agree that you can love two people in the same time.And I don't think buffy is in love whit Angel .She didn't thinkof him when he as in L.A ,she didn't think of hime when she was resutected,she didn't think of him when he was in the ocean for 3 months.
Comment by Spike's KittyKat on May 22, 2010 at 2:26am
**I decided to expand on it a bit**

I have to say I always took that line where Buffy admits she does "think about it sometimes" to mean that she thought about the future sometimes and still wonders what it would be like to be in a normal relationship. I didn't take it to be about Angel at all but I guess perhaps I"m just hopeful. It's just they were talking about Spike and fat grandbabies and how she wasn't supposed to be with any man and should be satisfied with now instead of looking to her future and dwelling in the past. I didn't see Angel anywhere in her future conversation with him. In fact I saw it as Buffy finally saw Angel's relationship for what it was, a long goodbye to something that was already bad to begin with. She summed up her relationship with Angel well when she asked him what he saw as the highlight of their relationship. I sort of saw that as Buffy's sort of nice way of saying she had written off any future with him and wished he would too. She was looking at this realitistically now and that just didn't include Angel since everything about him was based on a fantasy and their reality sucked.

The scene where their conversation takes place set the mood for two people talking about things. As exes sometimes do, Angel was focusing on the future and trying to get Buffy to admit she wanted a future with him. Probably because his ego had just taken a big blow finding out Spike who Buffy was chosing over him had a soul like him. So Angel wants Buffy to admit Spike is just a fling and she wants him. Buffy of course as we know didn't react this way.

Instead we see Buffy saying I can't deal with the future. I can't even see it anymore. She clearly is living in the here and now as most grown ups tend to do. She analyzed her past, saw her present as not allowing for a normal relationship and was not dwelling on the fantasy future anymore. So when she said, "Angel, I do think about it sometimes..." I always thought it meant about her future in general and what it might bring rather than her imagining him. He might be part of her future fantasy but I'm sure many others were too...
Comment by cil domney on May 22, 2010 at 1:38am
"I actually accept a new love interest in Buffy's life indicating she moved on from Spike, but I just can't see her being with Angel anymore…there characters just don't fit together anymore....and I think if Joss decided to go with (I love you both the same, and you're both important) for me that's running away from making Buffy take a definite decision and dissolving this love triangle…maybe not to lose any of his fans…but still, anything is better than a Bangel ending."

The Thing is that Joss Whedon obviously wants to keep Buffy connected to Angel/Angelus or he would not have written that that "I do think about it" line. What his ideas are about them now may be very different, but he was directly involved in where Brad Meltzer took the couple. And I don't think that Scott Allie, Georges Jeanty and the other PR reps would have been so sure and made such declarative statements about Buffy and her love for Angel if Joss Whedon had not given that idea some credence - either that or all that was being done was for the purpose of market strategy. I found the whole "no crossovers because of business arrangements" distasteful. I resented being "played" since from the start, the crossover with Angel/Angelus was their primary arc.
Comment by cil domney on May 22, 2010 at 1:09am
treated with respect - sounds very "iffy" to me, just what the heck does that mean - outside of absolutely "nada." There was never any ambiguity from any of the Buffy Loves Angel True Love gallery, they have been adamant about this point. I don't see why Mr. Allie could not have been a little more specific about what Spike's role would be in the final phase. No one is expecting any kind of romantic reunion, or sexcapdes for Buffy and Spike. Thank the PTB for that, no Spuffy fan would want Buffy-Spike sex after all that nonsense of Cosmic/Tantric Sex presented in issue 34.

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