Hey everyone…missed you all :D

I know I've been away for a while now but I was following everything, about all the voting and that dark-stupid-horse…and I voted in all the links…hope they just listen before they ruin everything.

Now, about this topic, it's not really as Bangel as it looks…its more about understanding this sentence. Cause of all the things I hate, dislike or disagree with in the Bangel relationship, this is one of few things I couldn't find an excuse or a reasonable explanation for.

Season tow, Buffy told Angel that when he kisses her she wants to die!!! And I keep wondering what Buffy (or Joss) meant by that. Because one of the reasons I do strongly believe that Buffy was in love with Spike in season six was that he was THE ONLY ONE WHO MADE HER FEEL ALIVE. Isn't that what you should feel with the person you love?! Why would you want to die when the person you love kisses you? I wasn't sure if it was suppose to be Buffy trying to express how strong her feelings for him are, trying to tell him that she's not as naïve as he stated in the fairytales speech he gave her before those words? I thought maybe she was trying to tell him that when he kisses her she's so full and satisfied that she doesn't want anything from this world and even if she died at this moment she'll die happy or something, but that sounded so stupid. Because if that's how she feels than she should want it to last as long as possible…she should want more NOT WANT TO DIE!!!…I also thought that maybe it was her comeback to his speech – because yeah, it does sound more of an insult than a love statement to me- but at this point Buffy was crazy about him and practically throwing herself at him so I don't think she'd do that either. The most logical explanation that I came up with was that Joss had a meaning that I couldn't understand…I know Joss likes playing with words and using symbolism and stuff like that but I usually get them…apparently not this time, though, so help me please.

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You know that's one of the things I can't find a normal explanation too.I think her saying aht when she kisses him she wants to die seems like a total teenager crush/infatuation thing.f she wanted to say that she felt full when he kisses her she could have said ''I feel completlly full when you kiss me that I want to die''or something like that but she disn't.If the writers wanted it to sound romantic they failed.To me this is an insult to real,true love that people feel for each other because when you truly love a person you ive for him,you want to love for him.And if I'm honest they are many things I can't understand about Bangel's relationship.In s3 Angel told her that he ''fell in love'' whit her the moment he saw hr thn why the hell didn't he help her or her watched while they were fighting that damon and why didn't Buffy asked him why didn't he helped them.It's just so stupid and it doesn't make sence to me.
So in the end Angel was the one who made her feel dead and Spike was the one who made her feel alive.and they want us the Spuffy fans to think Bangel are true love forever.It'sjust they are so mant wrong things in this ship that if youlook deeper you''ll see how unhealthy Bangel really is.
i agree, and its kind of creepy that he fell in love with her when she was only fifteen and sucking lollipop (Ewwwwwwwwwww) and Buffy didn't care of course about his reasons for not helping her, all she cared about was that he said he loved her...(you know that's another stupid thing, i mean in that scene when he told her that he loved her before she was the slayer...she was scared that he might not love her if she lost her powers -yeah, true love indeed- and he told her he loved her before she was the slayer and she was happy, but what's the point really even if he saw her before her calling, he knew she will be the slayer so to me his speech wasn't that comforting and didn't match the stiuation) SHE WROTE B+A FOREVER ON HER DIARIES...she was so childish...but she grew up without him, and she turned into a grawn up woman...a hell of a woman...Spike was there the whole time right next to her...he fell in love with that woman and managed to win her hear. and now bringing back Angel and Buffy together again in the comics would be the stupidest thing they could ever do....they really annoy me
That line is an example of what is called hyperbole. I am not sure how that works in European literature other than English lit, but it's an exaggeration. I know that what Buffy said sounds silly, but it is supposed to be an exaggerated teenaged girl exclamation. Things like, referring to a boy that a girl might like, she might say, "When he said 'hi' to me, I thought I'd die," which is pretty much the same thing that Buffy said. So, it means that the girl is excited about "something" that the guy did or said, and what the implication really is that the girl is so happy its like she's died and gone to heaven. It's just that the word "heaven" is generally implied. So, you are basically right with your definition of being so full and satisfied that if you died at that moment you would die happy, but it doesn't mean that the person literally wants to die.
That's very interesting explanation, Lulurose, thanks. The English language is our second language, to 3 of us here, so we're getting some specific sentences too literal. I know what hyperbole means, but there is not such a hyperbole in Bulgarian language to die by a kiss. Actually we have got something similar - to die by a happiness maybe is the same... :)
Hello sister Enny! I'm glad that you're back! Well I'm pissed about Bangel and that lame reunion and I do beleive that it would end in the next issue. I only want to point why Spuffy is better than Bangel
Bangel - a man turns to a monster.
Spuffy - a monster turns to a man (and champion!)
I can't say more! ;)
You know chosing that wording is interesting though if you think about it. Sure I've heard a few teenagers state that same statement (I was close to Buffy's age so it was the slang going around then) but if you think about it in terms of the show, Buffy was a slayer and was at that point dating a vampire. Sure she meant it as the slang way of saying it but it could have been taken another way in that she wanted to spend forever with Angel and to do so she knew she would have to die. That part always fascinated me. So we have a slayer falling in love with an eternal living vampire. So if she really wanted to have him spend forever with her as was suggested in the episode after her mom died, then she would have to die.

So you know what else got my attention? So we are talking about speeches and in the last speech she makes to Angel where she says that she doesn't see fat grandkids in the future with Spike...I have to say I saw that differently than it appears that the Bangel people did. The Bangel people in that discussion on DH seem to think that means she never planned to spend her future with Spike but instead I saw it as seeing Spike for what he was and accepting him as such. WIth Angel she never saw him as a vampire but instead as someone cursed that would eventually be human. Kind of like someone who would outgrow a problem they were having only in this case being turned into a vampire. Their whole relationship was based on what would happen if he were human, how they would live, the children they would have, and the future they would have together forever until they both died around the same age. With Spike I think it was a more realistic relationship so that she understood that no grandkids were in his future. What do you guys think?
Well, I may be getting mixed up, but wasn't Angel's destiny/shansu not even part of his storyline while he was on the Buffy series? It was when Doyle showed up that he started to get knowledge about TPB's "destiny" for him, which has certainly changed-and not in a consisent way, IMO, but that's not applicable to this subject. I definitely thought that Buffy's reference to Spike about the grandchildren was in terms of her knowing that there would not be, at least, any biological children(short of a Connor experience) and then, of course, no grandchildren as a result of the fact that vampires normally can't reproduce sexually, as its not necessary since they reproduce through their "bite," basically. I didn't think she meant there was no future with him.

Concerning Angel, in Chosen, I took it as he, since a lot had changed since he first made the decision to leave Sunnydale, had changed his POV, and was indicating that he would like a future with Buffy, if it ever became possible from her POV. In terms of Buffy dying, the only way she could be with Angel if she died would be if she became a vampire, right? If she dies, then she is dead, and will be in an afterlife somewhere-like she was before-but, unless Angel has also lost his vampire "life," he would still be here on earth centuries from now, just like he's already been here almost three centuries.

I suppose that Buffy's line about dying when Angel kisses her could possibly be her way, at the time, of saying that she would be willing to die, as in allowing him to turn her, as she was so smitten with him. That would be very Jossian, IMO.

Veiriti, that phrase certainly can also be defined as meaning dying of happiness
Thanks, Lulu! And you have a point about the children and grandchildren. Actually she was speaking metaphorically – maybe I wouldn’t be with Spike in a distance future, but he’s in her heart now. And “now” is more important than some hypothetical future… That’s it.
And there are another hyperbolic phrase which I could use about kissing Angel – dying of boring! LOL
I love all what you said... And I love your last sentence Veiriti ! lol. Totally agree :)

Concerning the scene in "Chosen", I agree with your opinions.

For me, she thinks to a future with Angel because she loves a memory of their relationship, she always idealizes their love story in her mind. And I think she needs to see by herself that their relationship have so much faults and inconsistencies. Because, well, hyper-intensity is not love ; melodrama is not love ; idealization is not love. Perhaps there's love in their relationship, but I don't see it and I don't feel it. Really.

But the most important thing is : with Spike, it's more than simply mentioning a potential future ! She forges this future, because she returns to him, she chooses him as her champion, she says to him that she loves him, and she clearly wants to deepen their love story. When she talks with him about her kiss with Angel, she minimizes it : "It was a... hello. I was surprised. " (the second sentence was in the original script).
She was falling in love with him, and if Spike wasn't dead, their relationship would become more powerful, and I'm persuaded of one thing : their relationship would have worked.

Because they have this potential. They have a grownup relationship, they can be romantic, they can be hot, they can be funny, they can have an argument, they can communicate, they can fight shoulder to shoulder, they can understand each other, they can trust each other... They simply can be Buffy and Spike. To be themselves. It sounds realistic. It sounds adult. It sounds as true love.

A quote I love from Marti Noxon :

"The thing I keep saying is that it's not black and white. I'd love it to be, but it's not. To me, this is much more real. If these two crazy kids can make it work, it will be a lot more interesting than a kind of perfect romance with obstacles thrown in. To me, this is real life; this is people making their own problems. If they can get it together, that would be amazing. But it was never going to be easy. That's why Spike did something radical at the end of the year. Joss came up with the idea of the house coming down around them while they made love. It was perfect, because we needed something catastrophic to go along with this huge dangerous union." -- Marti Noxon

I will not change my mind about it. With fanfictions, fans prove every day during years that their relationship works.

This potential just waiting to be explored again on BTVS... They deserve it.
"You know choosing that wording is interesting though if you think about it. Sure I've heard a few teenagers state that same statement (I was close to Buffy's age so it was the slang going around then) but if you think about it in terms of the show, Buffy was a slayer and was at that point dating a vampire. Sure she meant it as the slang way of saying it but it could have been taken another way in that she wanted to spend forever with Angel and to do so she knew she would have to die. That part always fascinated me. So we have a slayer falling in love with an eternal living vampire. So if she really wanted to have him spend forever with her as was suggested in the episode after her mom died, then she would have to die."

Right On - and it is such an obvious connection - to be with her "B&A-Forever" is an impossibility in their status, Buffy must either die and become a vampire to join his real physical world or Angel/Angelus must fully die and metamorphosis into a human male. Add to this all her statements about wanting a normal life only adds more to the complexity of who and what Buffy is.

she wants to die = her heart and love are so overwhelming that they consume her, which is just what happens.
she wants to die = the connection to the phrase that sublime sex is like a little death
she wants to die = give herself over completely to him, to find relief from the Slayer world.

Interesting that all these sentiments and words are indeed the conversion of her relationship and journey with Spike.

Really, I am so saddened by all that is happening with the Buffyverse now -

Great topic - thanks for starting it
thank you all for replying...love all your answers...especially you Veiry about dying of boring...lol
love posting discssions on this group...always great answers and many topics to talk about....i'll be back later to talk more about the not seeing grandchildren with Spike.
love you all


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