Ok, this is where we can now discuss any and all episodes that feature anything Spuffy, whether its  postive or negative concerning their relationship, or even them individually, as long as it still relates to the relationship-we have the other threads designated for them to discuss them as individual characters separate from the other characters.

So, let's get started!

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SPIKE: Well, it's all relative, isn't it?
BUFFY: Meaning?
SPIKE: Meaning I have come to redefine the words pain and suffering since I fell in love with you.
BUFFY: How can you say that?
SPIKE: Apparently, I just slaughtered half of Sunnydale, pet. I'm not really worried about being polite anymore.
BUFFY: So, that's what this is about. You feeling sorry for yourself, Spike?
SPIKE: I'm feeling honest with myself. You used me.
BUFFY: Yes.
SPIKE: You told me that, of course. I never understood it though. Not until now. You hated yourself, and you took it out on me.
BUFFY: You figured that out just now?
SPIKE: Soul's not all about moonbeams and pennywhistles, luv. It's about self-loathing. I get it. Had to travel 'round the world, but I understand you now. I understand the violence inside.
BUFFY: Violence? William the Bloody now has insight into violence?
SPIKE: Not the same. As bad as I was, as evil and as wretched as I was, I never truly hated myself back then. Not like I do now.
An interesting exchange to me it reads like Buffy is still wanting that distance between herself and the reality of their relationship in S6. While Spike, IMO, is trying to talk about the emotional context of what they experienced, she seems to still want distance. Spike is talking about the violence of their lives in S6, Buffy brings in William the Bloody, who never really played a part in their S6. Spike from his love, allows his objectification of self, Buffy needed to see him in his evil dark vampire persona. It's a very subtle conversation because it has both the harsh reality and still has a separation of characters. Maybe I am just reading too much into the text -
While getting his soul is not what allowed the capacity to feel guilt, it is what finally, in a strange way, make them equals. One of the most heart breaking and powerful lines is when he tells her how all that self-loathing was turned on him – especially within the context of “Dead Things.”

I perceive Buffy's grumpiness, but in this case Buffy should be allowed some grumpiness.  Everybody's still dubious about Spike, and Buffy has insisted on keeping him around. Now its a fact that he has killed some more. Still, Buffy has been following a logical path, because, as dangerous as Spike is, he is still the only "lead" they have concerning The First. However, I think her grumpiness is not just aimed toward Spike, although he does get some of the brunt of it here, and he doesn't react to Buffy's shortness-at least not emotionally, IMO, in that he doesn't get off into really snarky territory(the comment about the moonbeams is humorous, but it didn't have a sarcastic edge, IMO). I think she is grumpy because of the over all situation-she knows that, logically, Spike is still valuable to figuring out how to deal with The First, but now it will even get more complicated because of what he's done, and I think the anticipation of that makes her edgy, and cross with Spike. Buffy gets rather snarky with Spike when she gets incredulous about Wiliam the Bloody and violence. Instead of snarking back, Spike calmly explains the difference in his mindset now that he has a soul. I think he's trying to explain how much more he is conscious of others and what effect his actions has on them-and the fact that he now cares about if that effect is negative. That's difference between the demon mentality, where the more negative, the more it enjoyed it.

 

I think the distance is probably because she is having problems not reacting to Spike like he "is" the old Spike because of what he has just done. Again, she knows, intellectually, that he's not the same, and fortunately his responses, since they aren't snarky, reinforce that. So, I think her brain is telling her that this is a souled Spike, but he's being affected by The First somehow, but her emotions are saying, "Warning, warning, this is the old, dangerous Spike who's the loose cannon" Fortunately logical Buffy wins out.

That is just some subtext that I perceive.

Buffy, IMO doesn't keep Spike with her (in s7) only because he's in some way her connection to the first. i love their conversation in the end of "first date":

SPIKE: Did anybody tell you about what happened around here tonight?
BUFFY: Willow did. The First is back in the mix.
SPIKE: It, uh, it talked to the little boy. Said it wasn't time for me yet. I should move out. Leave town before it's time for me.
BUFFY: No, you have to stay.
SPIKE: You've got another demon fighter now.
BUFFY: That's not why I need you here.
SPIKE: Is that right? Why's that then?
BUFFY: 'Cause I'm not ready for you to not be here.
First Date (Season 7)

 

what does she mean by "'Cause I'm not ready for you to not be here." - is that because he's +1 demon fighter  or because he is her connection to the first or because of something else? -> because she "feels for him" as she told Dawn herself in "him"(IMO) - but if she feels for him what does she feel? i even asked my mom for her POV - she said it's love but i'm not so sure about that -- i even think it is not love :(

I think that Buffy is admitting, in an indirect manner, that she's not willing to give up Spike because he is important to her. He points out the arguments that she uses to the others to explain why she wants him there-because he is a good fighter-the only other one who has supernatural ability. He points out that isn't true now(in the story)referring to the fact that Faith is there, so she does have another person to back her up like that. She is just not ready to admit-to him or herself-that Spike means something to her. She just tells him that she still wants him there, but doesn't elaborate. Of course, knowing what happens with Spike, even if he'd left that wouldn't have kept The First from manipulating him to come back and try to use him against Buffy. Keeping Spike around was a calculated risk, but at least if he was around they could possbily deal with him going off on them easier than if they never knew if-and when- The First might send him to attack them.  So, I feel that Buffy wasn't lying about why she wanted Spike there, but that wasn't the only reason that she wanted him there.
 
From Sleeper
(earlier scene)
SPIKE: Not that. The taste of human blood. That, I'd remember.
BUFFY: You were camped out on the hell mouth talking to invisible people. Recently. How can you be sure of?
SPIKE: No! You are wrong. You've got an accusation from a pile of dust and not a shred of proof.
BUFFY: So, I'll get some. (exits)
(
Spike looks like he's having doubts)
_________________________________________________________________________
(later scene)
BUFFY: OK, guys, find me some evidence that he did this.
BUFFY: Find me the proof that he didn't.
BUFFY: Look, we can't assume anything. We need hard facts.
BUFFY: Maybe. But it still doesn't prove that it's Spike. Right now, he's the only one who knows for sure.

What I like is the contrast with Buffy – and how much is starting to move away from her harsh and automatic “Spike is an evil vampire and suspect.” Buffy wants hard facts about what is going on - either for or against, but facts.


Yes, it shows that Buffy, despite her ambivalence, knew from the start that she had to get to the bottom of why Spike seemed to know the things that he knew. If she hadn't been given the clues about "from beneath you, it devours" she could have just blown it off as Spike having gone insane, from trying to cope with his soul, or for who knows what reason. When he kept making references to it, along with his irrational behavior-irrational even for a vampire in general, and even for the usually volatile Spike-Buffy knew that there had to be some connection. What she didn't know was if Spike knew there was a connection, and also was back to being an active vampire-even with a soul, as strange as that was supposed to be-and was just playing "dumb," or if he really was clueless. When it turned out he had been clueless, and was even desirous of Buffy staking him, she became even further convinced that Spike could be instrumental in figuring out more about The First, and she turned out to be right.

cil domney said:
 
From Sleeper
(earlier scene)
SPIKE: Not that. The taste of human blood. That, I'd remember.
BUFFY: You were camped out on the hell mouth talking to invisible people. Recently. How can you be sure of?
SPIKE: No! You are wrong. You've got an accusation from a pile of dust and not a shred of proof.
BUFFY: So, I'll get some. (exits)
(
Spike looks like he's having doubts)
_________________________________________________________________________
(later scene)
BUFFY: OK, guys, find me some evidence that he did this.
BUFFY: Find me the proof that he didn't.
BUFFY: Look, we can't assume anything. We need hard facts.
BUFFY: Maybe. But it still doesn't prove that it's Spike. Right now, he's the only one who knows for sure.

What I like is the contrast with Buffy – and how much is starting to move away from her harsh and automatic “Spike is an evil vampire and suspect.” Buffy wants hard facts about what is going on - either for or against, but facts.


It's been a long time since we had an episode discussion - Would someone like to suggest an episode they would like to watch again and discuss.
I've watched the first few episodes of the show, which I wasn't nearly as familiar with as I am the later ones, because I like the Spike angle. I'd be willing to discuss how the characters were perceived when they all started out. I found it interesting that Buffy told Giles she didn't like Angel, because I didn't know that before.

cil domney said:
It's been a long time since we had an episode discussion - Would someone like to suggest an episode they would like to watch again and discuss.

which seasons are we talking about - I like your idea very of how we first perceived the characters and how our response, understanding and interpretations changed -

 

It has been a long time since I watched the early seasons - it will be good to watch again some again. 

do you have some favs you want to watch - I am open to any episodes. 

I am talking about season one. I watched Welcome To The Hellmouth, and The Harvest. So, I guess I am talking to going back to the beginning, literally, and talking about them.
 Do you want to start with either of these? Or should we just start with WTTHM?

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Does Spike need a Soul? 9 Replies

Started by latoya. Last reply by cil domney Sep 1, 2014.

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