For discussion of Buffy Season 11!

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The Q&A from Christos has been completed over on SlayAlive. http://slayalive.com/showthread.php/3881-Q-amp-A-with-Christos-Gage...

His answer to me wasn't what I was asking.  The second part was a little and against his earlier answer to Morphia it answers my question a little bit.  I can't even begin to understand how he translated the question into being about division in the camp itself. :s  I often seem to be misunderstood in the Q&As.  It must be at least partly, if not mostly, my fault.  I think there is a bit of them trying to read/respond quickly, but I must be convoluted, unclear, or perhaps I make the question too complex when really I'm trying to be succinct.  I don't know, but it is frustrating to be misunderstood and not get an answer to what you asked.  Oh well.

Not only do we have all the troubles with this morality and ethics of Auto Kill Demons but Post Whistler Magic Seeding – There are now probably thousands of Newly Created Demons who were transformed by NO CHOICE from their human lives.  The Magic Drain would also condemn all these new life forms to death if the magical life force that sustains them is taken away.  Or it should unless Magic Town is going to be ignored.

I think it's probably going to be ignored because Magic Town is in London and Buffy S11 seems to be focused exclusively on the USA. When Willow says "on a massive scale" I don't assume she's talking about worldwide drainage (or even the entire USA, really). Just, a big scale, not clear how big yet.

Thanks for the link. It seems to me that you asked more or less the same question as Morphia, but in a more indirect way. I guess Gage expected it to be a different question from Morphia's, so that's why he assumed you were talking about different groups within the camp rather than demons or vampires in general.

Friom Gage's answer to Morphia I guess that the distinction between regular unsouled vampires and Angel & Spike as Very Special Vampires Who Are The Only Vampires Capable of Doing Good really isn't that clear anymore in Buffy's mind, and the 'verse in general.

Stoney said:

The Q&A from Christos has been completed over on SlayAlive. http://slayalive.com/showthread.php/3881-Q-amp-A-with-Christos-Gage...

His answer to me wasn't what I was asking.  The second part was a little and against his earlier answer to Morphia it answers my question a little bit.  I can't even begin to understand how he translated the question into being about division in the camp itself. :s  I often seem to be misunderstood in the Q&As.  It must be at least partly, if not mostly, my fault.  I think there is a bit of them trying to read/respond quickly, but I must be convoluted, unclear, or perhaps I make the question too complex when really I'm trying to be succinct.  I don't know, but it is frustrating to be misunderstood and not get an answer to what you asked.  Oh well.

Thanks for the Q&A link going over to read now -  The Buffyverse has introduced many questions and fundamental premises from the TV era.  And now all these demons and supernatural and magical entities MUST also effect the dogma that Buffy once lived buy regarding the duties and "protector" description that she depended on for many years.  If there is a human shooting at and killing demons who are not dangerous what are her Slayer Duties Now?  

This answered my questions about what is happening with other areas and countries -  IGNORE what should be logical connections and limit our focus on only this story.  And of course Dawn is facing once again facing her potential death as she is most definitely now The Key.  And what about all those Potentials now Slayers?  Their powers, like Buffy's were magically created.  I sure as hell hope that this storyline is continued into next season as it is a really HUGE theme and must have lasting effects for planet Earth.  

Double Dutchess said:

Not only do we have all the troubles with this morality and ethics of Auto Kill Demons but Post Whistler Magic Seeding – There are now probably thousands of Newly Created Demons who were transformed by NO CHOICE from their human lives.  The Magic Drain would also condemn all these new life forms to death if the magical life force that sustains them is taken away.  Or it should unless Magic Town is going to be ignored.

I think it's probably going to be ignored because Magic Town is in London and Buffy S11 seems to be focused exclusively on the USA. When Willow says "on a massive scale" I don't assume she's talking about worldwide drainage (or even the entire USA, really). Just, a big scale, not clear how big yet.

Double Dutchess said:

Thanks for the link. It seems to me that you asked more or less the same question as Morphia, but in a more indirect way. I guess Gage expected it to be a different question from Morphia's, so that's why he assumed you were talking about different groups within the camp rather than demons or vampires in general.

Friom Gage's answer to Morphia I guess that the distinction between regular unsouled vampires and Angel & Spike as Very Special Vampires Who Are The Only Vampires Capable of Doing Good really isn't that clear anymore in Buffy's mind, and the 'verse in general.

Hmm, as I said, the answer to Morphia addressed a bit of what I was asking but it wasn't the same question.  I really will spend extra time editing what I'm writing if I do any of these again.  My question was more about the hypocritical side of their position than focussing on seeing the greys in it.

I don't think that the distinction between the souled and unsouled vampires isn't clear in Buffy's mind.  I'm not sure where Gage feels he sees some morals in unsouled vampires (if he thinks there has been some that can't be attributed to serving self interest), but I don't think that Buffy would draw an equivalency in the right to live between Vicky and Spike (using Vicky as the example as she was the one Spike was appalled at the idea of having the same rights as him at the start of the season).  We don't see examples of other vampires doing things for the greater good and Spike very firmly dissuaded Buffy last season from misunderstanding what even he was capable of unsouled.  So I really don't think a move away from the distinction between regular unsouled vamps and Angel and Spike is something that we've seen and that we've seen supported.  But the idea that the distinction between the unsouled and souled vampires might be pulled apart somewhat in the eyes of the reader trying to draw equivalency because of the metaphor is exactly the kind of negative effect that I am hoping this season doens't end up creating.

I think the current social truth in the verse, with demons living alongside humans, actually does change things from where they were at in their attitudes in the early seasons.  It makes some of Buffy's earlier actions very questionable, but that was always somewhat on the page anyway and highlighted in S4 with the actions of The Initiative.  So, this shift to all sentient creature's right to exist is what is going on, and that is the 'bit' that fitted along with my question.  But this is a huge step from equivalency.  Saying a creature has a right to live but if they step out of line you will kill them without hesitation is a whole leap away from feeling like life should be preserved if at all feasible.  The metaphor for demons as 'others' doesn't fully work if you are still 'right' to be prejudiced against some because of what they are and if you don't treat all creatures as having an equal right to live without distinction.  The group don't treat demons on the same equal level in all ways to humans.   

cil domney said:

This answered my questions about what is happening with other areas and countries -  IGNORE what should be logical connections and limit our focus on only this story.  And of course Dawn is facing once again facing her potential death as she is most definitely now The Key.  And what about all those Potentials now Slayers?  Their powers, like Buffy's were magically created.  I sure as hell hope that this storyline is continued into next season as it is a really HUGE theme and must have lasting effects for planet Earth.

That the other slayers were given their powers through a spell rather than it being 'naturally' passed down to the next slayer may be something that is going to become a part of the season.  But if the original slayer's power given by the shadowmen connects it irreversibly to magic too, and it is just a part of the spell which passes on the power, yes, it would also depower Buffy and Faith.  Is that what you are expecting?  I had always thought of the slayer power as being something dormant in some people (potentials), that Buffy's power was something that was an inherent part of her and this was why she was always shown to be both capable without it but that it clearly didn't feel 'right' when she was.  If there isn't some part of it which is natural to some people then it must have been a further part of the spell that created slayers that picks who are potentials.  It pulls down the idea of the empowerment in S7 if there isn't anything natural to it (not that I was ever keen on the S7 empowerment spell anyway).

Stoney - 

I did as well think of the potentials as having dormant full powers of The Slayer but from the series, I wished that there had been a bit more clarity on what exactly powers the potentials had or how the CoW discovered those Potentials.  With Amanda I never got the impression that she considered herself as physically unusual - that she was stronger than other girls she knew at school.  Kennedy was one of those discovered potentials and she had been trained but again was she physically stronger than other young girls and then young women?  

You bring in a good point about the original source of the Slayer Line - it was done by magical means as well by The Shadow Men.  The Slayer was a symbiotic life force of human female and demonic spirit created by magic.  Since it was such a big flag that Buffy would take her Slayer Scythe into the compound I'm expecting that the Slayer Scythe will play a significant part in this story.  We know that one of the covers will feature Buffy and Willow and some sort of energy transfer and that both characters have a visual treatment that would suggest "fading" but who knows.  

Regarding your question and the CG answer - I don't think he addressed your question - you were, I believe trying to address the moral positions of the Sunnydale group and the CoW teachings which were transferred over, mostly, to the Angelverse.  What, Where and How are the boundaries of Good vs Evil established and how do they function as morals and ethical positions and the reality of the working models that Buffy, Giles and Angel along with all their inner circle.  I'm thinking of Warren and other humans doing obvious evil deeds contrasted to demons or supernatural beings also doing evil deeds.  Does Warren because he is human held to a different standard or moral judgement than say Spike once he begins his transformation journey - hell, it gets even more complicated if we go with a stripped down Warren Evil Human vs Spike Evil Vampire and Spike with both Evil Deeds and Good Deeds.  

Is there a demanded intrinsic difference between humans engaged in grave evil deeds and similar evil deeds done by vampires and supernatural or magic beings in the Buffyverse? 

@Stoney: I guess I wasn't making myself too clear either :-) I didn't mean to imply that Buffy now sees souled and unsouled vampires as equivalent. (I also don't think Gage meant to imply this, but I can't check his answer because Slayalive seems to be down.)

I think Buffy still sees a distinction, it's just no longer a black and white case of "all vampires must die except if they have a soul". Now it's more, all vampires can live *if* they're on good behaviour (which has been shown to be possible without a soul). But if Vicki or any other unsouled vampire misbehaved, I don't think Buffy would have any qualms about staking them.
I might be wrong in my assumptions, of course. But I don't think Gage has enough issue space to also take on the possible ramifications for Magic Town.

cil domney said:

This answered my questions about what is happening with other areas and countries -  IGNORE what should be logical connections and limit our focus on only this story.  And of course Dawn is facing once again facing her potential death as she is most definitely now The Key.  And what about all those Potentials now Slayers?  Their powers, like Buffy's were magically created.  I sure as hell hope that this storyline is continued into next season as it is a really HUGE theme and must have lasting effects for planet Earth.  

Double Dutchess said:

Not only do we have all the troubles with this morality and ethics of Auto Kill Demons but Post Whistler Magic Seeding – There are now probably thousands of Newly Created Demons who were transformed by NO CHOICE from their human lives.  The Magic Drain would also condemn all these new life forms to death if the magical life force that sustains them is taken away.  Or it should unless Magic Town is going to be ignored.

I think it's probably going to be ignored because Magic Town is in London and Buffy S11 seems to be focused exclusively on the USA. When Willow says "on a massive scale" I don't assume she's talking about worldwide drainage (or even the entire USA, really). Just, a big scale, not clear how big yet.

cil domney said:

Stoney - 

I did as well think of the potentials as having dormant full powers of The Slayer but from the series, I wished that there had been a bit more clarity on what exactly powers the potentials had or how the CoW discovered those Potentials.  With Amanda I never got the impression that she considered herself as physically unusual - that she was stronger than other girls she knew at school.  Kennedy was one of those discovered potentials and she had been trained but again was she physically stronger than other young girls and then young women?  

Yes, it is a fair point, how does the Council identify potentials if it isn't somehow about the 'them' of it?? :s

You bring in a good point about the original source of the Slayer Line - it was done by magical means as well by The Shadow Men.  The Slayer was a symbiotic life force of human female and demonic spirit created by magic.  Since it was such a big flag that Buffy would take her Slayer Scythe into the compound I'm expecting that the Slayer Scythe will play a significant part in this story.  We know that one of the covers will feature Buffy and Willow and some sort of energy transfer and that both characters have a visual treatment that would suggest "fading" but who knows.  

Fair point about the scythe too.  They have just used it of course to hide Willow's step outside the compound, but it could well be there intentionally for more than that and as it relates to the empowerment spell and Willow has already been draining power perhaps it will be tied in to taking the slayer powers back.  It seems something that would be viewed as a negative action though and so not something that the group would choose to do but that the scythe may be taken to try and achieve??

Regarding your question and the CG answer - I don't think he addressed your question - you were, I believe trying to address the moral positions of the Sunnydale group and the CoW teachings which were transferred over, mostly, to the Angelverse.  What, Where and How are the boundaries of Good vs Evil established and how do they function as morals and ethical positions and the reality of the working models that Buffy, Giles and Angel along with all their inner circle.  I'm thinking of Warren and other humans doing obvious evil deeds contrasted to demons or supernatural beings also doing evil deeds.  Does Warren because he is human held to a different standard or moral judgement than say Spike once he begins his transformation journey - hell, it gets even more complicated if we go with a stripped down Warren Evil Human vs Spike Evil Vampire and Spike with both Evil Deeds and Good Deeds. 

Is there a demanded intrinsic difference between humans engaged in grave evil deeds and similar evil deeds done by vampires and supernatural or magic beings in the Buffyverse?

Yes that all relates Cil.  If Buffy is judging unsouled vampires as untrustworthy, which she does and the verse supports, how is that compatible with saying that 'others' shouldn't be prejudiced against??  Are they going to acknowledge these things?  If Buffy had been jumped by a group of humans in the last issue, would she have killed them as readily as she did the demons in the ogre's group?  I know she has said that Jordan et al weren't off the 'kill' list, they certainly said that about her too, but are they in all honestly looking at the demons in the camp as having the same/equal rights to live as humans??  It is all really tied up with my worries about the metaphor and the complications of the greys

Double Dutchess said:

@Stoney: I guess I wasn't making myself too clear either :-) I didn't mean to imply that Buffy now sees souled and unsouled vampires as equivalent. (I also don't think Gage meant to imply this, but I can't check his answer because Slayalive seems to be down.)

I think Buffy still sees a distinction, it's just no longer a black and white case of "all vampires must die except if they have a soul". Now it's more, all vampires can live *if* they're on good behaviour (which has been shown to be possible without a soul). But if Vicki or any other unsouled vampire misbehaved, I don't think Buffy would have any qualms about staking them.
I see what you mean and I agree.  I think that the altered social awareness and the 'rules' has brought in this situation where it is better to see how someone behaves before you stake them.  I still don't think that Buffy sees them as 'equal' until they do something to prove otherwise though, and that I think is a problem if you are using them as a metaphor for others.   I mean just imagine the story saying that all immigrants had the right to live unless they committed acts of terrorism but you were right to be distrustful of them and make sure you were keeping an eye on what they got up to.  That would be an awful message which justified prejudice in the 'right' circumstances. :o
Yeah, demons = immigrants as a metaphor really doesn't work.

 I mean just imagine the story saying that all immigrants had the right to live unless they committed acts of terrorism but you were right to be distrustful of them and make sure you were keeping an eye on what they got up to.  That would be an awful message which justified prejudice in the 'right' circumstances. :o

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is what made this season so interesting to me - today we are living pretty much under this model - even worse because Trump and his supporters would add immigrants don't have any rights to come into the USA if they are seen as a danger via kind of connections, real or not, with terrorists or an entire ethnic group from specific nations or religious affiliations. 

And what will Buffy and Spike and Willow do regarding Dawn if she were ever under attack from a human - they would not hesitate to protect her even if they had to kill humans as readily as they would kill a demon or supernatural life form. 

I like, and frankly think that it's time for Slayers to go from Protecting Humans to Protecting Life Forms that are not engaged in doing evil or destructive acts against any other life forms.  

How can Slayers be seen as forces of Good if they automatically take a Kill Demons or Supernatural Life Forms irrespective of the actions being done - 

Look how horrible Jordan comes across with her high and mighty self righteous world view - 

Personally I would very much like to see these new powerful Slayers get a much needed reality check - like having the real power players in charge turn against them and abuse them as they are now without any thought to their prisoners needs or any sense of justice.  

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