I found the treatment for both these characters very peculiar - so much contrast between the first encounter and the last panel.  The Buffy ala Bitch is particularly interesting.  After all this time and never having seen Spike since her death sacrfice for her and the world, Spike greatest heroic/champion event, and after all their journey together, it is, IMO, such an incongruous encounter between these two. 

 

What are your thoughts on the Buffy & Spike reunion?  and how do you think it relates to the treatment very contrasting treatment of Buffy & Angel/Twangel? 

 

I invite all members who might be reading but not posting to please join in the discussion.

 

Views: 50

Replies to This Discussion

And about Buffy's behavior to Spike... who knows maybe Buffy is not angry at Spike, she is angry at herself - because she has slept with Angel and almost to destroy the world with her Space frak. You know every time when she was angry at herself she was yelling at Spike, even she was beating him - remember the scene in the alley when she beat him to a pulp and he only wanted to protect her - that was illogical just like the current situation - but if you look at it like a self-accusation so it seems to being logical... well, but poor Spike is suffering by her twisted logic... but Spike knows her better than everyone as he has said before he's her wiping boy... you see Spike knows that she has slept with that ponce Angel, but he didn't reproach her for it... he told her "I love the best and the worst of you" Spike is the hell of a man and I think that bitch doesn't deserve him... If I were Spike I should kick her arse out of the ship to go to fly with that moron Angel! I bet that the ponce will hurt her again - this time very badly!
I'm browsing the live journals now and I've found that very interesting and made me to laugh:
Buffy: What we did - it released these demons. All over. They're gonna target slayers.
Angel: Are you sure? (nah, Angel, they are gonna target vampires...what do you think? )
Buffy: Well everyone else has. (yep, including your true love, but let's not think about that.)

Angel: I got more powerful not remotely mature (or intelligent for some reason) I'll find you soon.
Buffy: You better. (sigh. But not before I save the world with Spike again.)

Faith: Where's the man-bitch formerly known as Angel?
Buffy: Protecting slayers (because apparently sending out the guy who was targeting slayers and convincing everyone to kill and torture slayers is the best person in the world to send after them. But hey, we're going to keep his henchmen in prison because they are so much more dangerous...you know the henchmen who switched teams and tried to help us stop him.)

Bloody stupid conversation - Buffy is acting even not like a teenage, she is acting like 6-7 year old girl... You can read the whole article here:
http://shadowkat67.livejournal.com/561945.html
Like the rest of us, I am disappointed in how Buffy is being written in regard to her reaction to Spike. However, up to this point I at least felt somewhat secure in the fact that Spike's fate was protected because of the fact that there was an arrangement with IDW. Now that is no longer any concern, that throw's Spike back into the Survival lottery. I know that he is going to survive season 8, but there is no guarantee that he will survive the season 9 round. If season 9 is finally meant to be the definitive "end" to the Buffyverse, and I don't know how that will affect the Angelverse-as in I don't know if the Angelverse will outlive the Buffyverse if Joss W. means to wrap everything up officially-then even Buffy herself could not survive, just like in season 5 of the show. On a really pessimistic note, if Joss wants to solve the love triangle in Angel's favor, what better way to remove Spike out of the equation than to allow him to go down-for good this time-fighting the good fight, which is how Spike always wants to go down when its his time to go, permanently, anyway. I hope that everyone isn't sharpening their stakes for me for bringing up such an unpleasant thought.

On the subject of the storyline. I know everyone, including me, has been wondering where Angel had been when he was so unceremoniously "dropped" back into this reality, I am wondering if Angel is being tricked into thinking that he has been fighting on the side of good to set him up for that future that he was shown by Wesley concerning the Shansu. The power told Angel, when it was in the guise of the stewardess, that what he had been given made the Shansu look worthless by comparison, but we still don't know whether or not that was the truth, since we don't know if the Twilight plane was truly paradise, or just seemed that way on the surface-which I suspect is really the case. Angel and Buffy were manipulated to do what they did to open it, but the dirty little secret is going to be that it wasn't a good thing. I know, Duh, right? I am talking from Buffy and Angel's POV. They now realize-although still somehow lacking with the gravity that they should(although maybe that is changing concerning Buffy, thanks to Spike still remaining The Teller of Unpleasant Truths)-that what they did let all these demons in. Apparently, though, they thought that the plane was a place where they could stay in a state of bliss, where they could indulge every whim just by thinking of it-providing that they thought only good thoughts, which, of course, Buffy found out the hard way it was possible to also still know the unpleasant, and they both left it there. They assumed that when they did that it would just continue to exist out there. Spike brought up the fact that it might come "looking for mummy," but I wonder if it is more a case of a more evil entity looking to access it now that it has been brought to fruition to use the power for its own evil purpose. That is more than likely the scenario, I have always thought that Buffy and Angel were used to "birth" this thing, and then whoever manipulated Angel, and then Buffy through Angel, meant to use it for itself-Buffy and Angel being the dumb schmucks falling for the temptation that they can overcome all the obstacles that they think keep them from being together-only to more than likely find out that is only an illusion once again, and that they are the two biggest Fools in any universe.

In terms of religious symbols, its kind of a convoluted Adam and Eve deal, with Angel as an "Adam" being given a choice that he thought was desirable, and convincing Buffy that it, too, was the thing that she still wanted. This time, though, instead of getting put out of Paradise for knowledge, they thought the knowledge would lead them to Paradise. Just like before, though, the knowledge only led them, and everyone else, into destruction, and they have given an evil being-apparently The Master-some authority and power that it didn't have before. Just what, we don't know entirely, but we know its not good.
This is what I have been saying as well - Buffy LoveSpeak is the nonsense speech of a child or extremely clueless 10 year old - either she has regress into that "love indiscriminate phase" or she is now an idiot.

Veiriti said:
I'm browsing the live journals now and I've found that very interesting and made me to laugh:
Buffy: What we did - it released these demons. All over. They're gonna target slayers.
Angel: Are you sure? (nah, Angel, they are gonna target vampires...what do you think? )
Buffy: Well everyone else has. (yep, including your true love, but let's not think about that.)

Angel: I got more powerful not remotely mature (or intelligent for some reason) I'll find you soon.
Buffy: You better. (sigh. But not before I save the world with Spike again.)

Faith: Where's the man-bitch formerly known as Angel?
Buffy: Protecting slayers (because apparently sending out the guy who was targeting slayers and convincing everyone to kill and torture slayers is the best person in the world to send after them. But hey, we're going to keep his henchmen in prison because they are so much more dangerous...you know the henchmen who switched teams and tried to help us stop him.)

Bloody stupid conversation - Buffy is acting even not like a teenage, she is acting like 6-7 year old girl... You can read the whole article here:
http://shadowkat67.livejournal.com/561945.html
Well she certainly looks like an idiot when talking to Angel:

Buffy S8 #36

I think the reason why Spike doesn't reproach her (much) for having sex with Angel is that he knows she was affected by Twilight, so it was not really her own choice. And about the glow affecting her judgement not her feelings -- I'm not so sure about the latter. Where did Scott Allie say that the glow didn't affect her feelings? Personally I think that Buffy still does have residual feelings for Angel; I think she never completely got over him (that's not so strange given their history). The glow simply amplified those feelings, causing her to act on them in a way she would normally not have done. And the same holds for Angel too. That's my theory anyway.
"In terms of religious symbols, its kind of a convoluted Adam and Eve deal, with Angel as an "Adam" being given a choice that he thought was desirable, and convincing Buffy that it, too, was the thing that she still wanted. This time, though, instead of getting put out of Paradise for knowledge, they thought the knowledge would lead them to Paradise. Just like before, though, the knowledge only led them, and everyone else, into destruction, and they have given an evil being-apparently The Master-some authority and power that it didn't have before. Just what, we don't know entirely, but we know its not good."

The Paradise Garden and the Temptation is such a great metaphor - The Eating From The Forbidden Tree of Life that would make them as Gods. Angel/Twangel, as I have thought from the first, is not, nor ever, been the main player - he was the servant for the real power players.

One glaring and totally obvious question is simply: Why would all these Great Super Powes and Great Transformation need to have such horrific violence and deceit as its impetus for creation? It's such an obvious element in the whole foundation of the story. LuLurose, as a fan of Star Trek, you might agree with me - Like Captain Kirk asked Sybok's God "why does God need a ship" (paraphrase). Why does SuperSlayer or CaptainMarvelSlayer need to be created from all this dark force and evil?

The thing is, and I think I speak for a huge portion of the fans, what made the Buffyverse and Buffy such a powerful connection between series and viewer was the reflections on real life. This comic book series and this mystery conversion has taken away a great deal of that connection.

What do I think, of course I am probably totally wrong - Angel/Twangel/Angelus makes the perfect vessel to use for the creation of A Dark Soul Universe - Angelus combined with Angel is a great foundation to use as a creative tool. Angel has all the massive emotional guilt strings to manipulate and Angelus has all the massive guilt free powerful dark forces to infuse or imprint on the new creation. Look what was done with Connor - he came back filled with all that rage and hatred for his creator dad, Connor was even called The Destroyer Prophecy that is being expected and being waited for by the demon cult.

There are life forms already in existence in Twilight LaLaLoveLand - how easy it would be for another entity (that fallen sculpted face makes even for sense to me now) to simply imprint whatever traits it wants onto the new creation or a life form that is there. Abandoned children are vulnerable and the prey of anyone will take responsibility for that life.

Going back to Sunnydale and a time change, like ramming into Big Ben, will that be the solution of this potential mystery life? "Back to the Beginning" is what Joss and The Master said - before the word, before God and the temples and houses - isn't this just what Buffy and Angel/Twangel have been manipulated into doing.

All speculation on my part, but I cannot believe that Joss Whedon is going to move the Buffyverse into something as simplistic and of insignificance as Bangel Love.

This issue , and I maybe totally wrong and off the train track, seems to be all about contrasts, pain, hurt and but also about a promise hope for the future struggle. I see that in Spike's being ready and willing to get right back in The Buffy Slayers Scoobies Side. Spike, in spite of being hurt by "the reek of him" and her mean spirited treatment is ready to get right back into the struggle with her. What comes from Spike is "you think we've got trouble now? Spike does not come into her life with this grandiose plan to take control of her life and bring her great powers and to take her to LaLaLoveLand, there is no plan for separation, his plan is to get into the fray (who could resist?) and help solve the problem. Maybe my Spike Love is making me see this through that "rose colored glass" but he has brought me hope again.

And what is the "Seed of Wonder" have no idea what Joss Whedon's has in mind, but this fan and reader can think of one great big metaphor connected to all this creation and paradise realms - The "Seed of Wonder" is the mind and its capacity to reason and have free will.

The Creation Origin Forces may be out to play again, but just like Milton's God, he gave the first parents the ability to choose their paths - either obedient children or to make their own choice.
Interesting stuff, about Paradise and Temptation. Still more questions than answers, with only a few issues left until the end. Cil, good catch about Spike's crash into the Big Ben being symbolic of the upcoming time change! And for me it also holds that this issue has given me hope; I'm not feeling pessimistic at all right now.
So I finally got to read the issue (thank you, Veiry ;)). And I didn’t like it at all. Even if –as some people say- things aren’t the way they seem, still Buffy’s reaction to Spike’s presence is very disappointing to me. Last time they saw each other she was holding his hand telling him she loved him and she was proud of him, she stood by his side as he burned inside sacrificing himself to save her and the world, such farewell deserved a much better reunion and stronger reaction and definitely more than “thank you for saving us from the upervamps”, I think Buffy had better reaction to Spike in Lessons when the last time she saw him he tried to rape her and she told him she can never love him!! And I can’t blame the Twilight influence for that, thinking she’s totally and absolutely in love with Angel no matter what he does is one thing; acting like she never cared about Spike’s death is something entirely different.

What pissed me off more than anything is the dialogue between Buffy and Angel, there was usage of sentences that I characterize as Spuffy. Maybe its unintentional, maybe it’s just me but you all know what I mean (it’s like what you think when you hear the words “you’re the one” or “can we rest” or “every night I save you”.. I know that these are words that anyone can use but I can’t help but relate them to the Spuffy moments that contained them)

When Buffy so stupidly –sorry to say- describes what Angel did as perfection and “the best day of her life” it took me right back to Spike’s speech in End of days “Best night of my life” only Spike was talking about being close to Buffy enough to hold her to sleep while Buffy was talking about having spacesex with Angel.

Buffy also while describing says “what Angel did for her she can’t pronounce” it took me back to the same speech by Spike when he said “I’ve done things with you I can’t spell

The sentence that bothered me more than any other in this issue is when Angel asks Buffy if knowing Spike’s part of the game was all she wanted from him and she answers “that’s beneath you, Baby” why is it beneath him to think that she might still have feelings for Spike??? And BABY?!!! Really?!!

Also the “you have my heart and he has a ship!!”…no comment on that…No wait, there is a comment….STUPIIIIIIIIIID

Why is she looking at him with gratitude and so much love while saying “you gave me perfection and you gave it up” is she seriously considering that a sacrifice on Angel’s side?!! He gave it up because he had no choice; because it was built for and by both of them and she tore it out and left. What would he possibly have done there if he stayed behind, alone!!

You can make up for a lot of damage, Angel. I need you to” Really?? Is it that simple? Just by “saving as many as he can” is he getting a pass for the millionth time regardless of what he did?

Angel’s “I’ll find you soon” and Buffy’s “you better”…well, when exactly will they learn to stay the hell away from each other? What more do they need? People already died!

I can’t really tell if Buffy’s reaction to Spike’s speech about what she and Angel caused is shame of what she did or sadness that she can’t stay with Angel.

Despite her cold reaction, the only moment I felt Buffy is really there is while talking with Spike, although it felt more of a season five Buffy. It’s as if season seven never happened.

I know most of you guys say it’s all because of the Twilight effect on her, and it could very well be true but it still bothers me. Especially that there are only four issues left and a world to save. I’m not sure that even if Buffy got rid of that effect, on her own or Spike saved her, that there will be time to fix the mess Joss created in their relationship. IMO he completely destroyed the Bangel relationship and unless Buffy has no self respect at all she should know by now it’s totally over with Angel. But I don’t think Joss will do that which means he’ll need also a little time to put the Bangel relationship back on the road

Two things i loved in this issue

one) Spike sounds really Spike...i was worried but i like him so far.

two) Willow turning Angel "accidently :P" into a frog while he was having the silly conversation with Buffy. i just wish she didn't turn him back so soon...LOL
itoy247 said:
What pissed me off more than anything is the dialogue between Buffy and Angel, there was usage of sentences that I characterize as Spuffy. Maybe its unintentional, maybe it’s just me but you all know what I mean (it’s like what you think when you hear the words “you’re the one” or “can we rest” or “every night I save you”.. I know that these are words that anyone can use but I can’t help but relate them to the Spuffy moments that contained them) When Buffy so stupidly –sorry to say- describes what Angel did as perfection and “the best day of her life” it took me right back to Spike’s speech in End of days “Best night of my life” only Spike was talking about being close to Buffy enough to hold her to sleep while Buffy was talking about having spacesex with Angel.

Buffy also while describing says “what Angel did for her she can’t pronounce” it took me back to the same speech by Spike when he said “I’ve done things with you I can’t spell

I also noticed the use of those phrases in the Buffy/Angel exchange; phrases that I always used to associate with Buffy/Spike. ("Beneath you" is one of those too.) I think they are part of the contrasting game that is being played here. When reading Buffy and Angel's dialogue we are supposed to be reminded of Buffy and Spike, and to make a comparison with their relationship -- a comparison that can only work out positively for Spike and Buffy, because that was very real while the current relationship between Buffy and Angel is extremely fake.

Maybe I'm looking through rose-tinted glasses, but these kinds of parallels actually make me happy and optimistic from a Spuffy perspective. I'm really sorry to see so many people who are deeply disappointed.
Omg.Buffy is so OOC while she and Angel were talking that I can't even ...Ok,can someone please answer me how can Buffy say that she doesn't trust Angel but she loves him(she said the same thing in s2) but in s6 sh etells to Spike taht she can't love him because she can't trust him.WTH is that?!And Buffy's reaction to Spike appearing,my god she is acting like a heartless bitch who never told Spike she loved him and was never willing to stay and die whit him.The Spuffy fanficion is way better because the aurthors knows the characters and they know that Buffy's reaction will be nothing like this.It just disgust me what hey have done whit Buffy and all of the characters.I have no words.I hae to go and read some Spuffy fanfiction to forget about this disaster.
"The sentence that bothered me more than any other in this issue is when Angel asks Buffy if knowing Spike’s part of the game was all she wanted from him and she answers “that’s beneath you, Baby” why is it beneath him to think that she might still have feelings for Spike??? And BABY?!!! Really?!!

Also the “you have my heart and he has a ship!!”…no comment on that…No wait, there is a comment….STUPIIIIIIIIIID"

Think that some of this is just the writer having fun with some of the over-the-top shippers - plus all this is so much about contrasts and mirror world conversion. Look at Buffy's body language when she is inside that ship that is saving all her slayers and friends. Once she has gone away from Angel/Twangel she is vulnerable both physically and emotionally. She starts out in Bitchy Buffy mode with Spike, all The Big Bad General but by the last panels with Spike she is just the opposite.

Also, take the use of "simple plans" what does the mystery force speaking through vessels tell Angel? "Even when things get the most complicated, you remain doggedly simple. That's part of why we chose you." - another example of contrasts.
two) Willow turning Angel "accidently :P" into a frog while he was having the silly conversation with Buffy. i just wish she didn't turn him back so soon...LOL

Maybe Angel/Twangel is going to end up being the mystery prince that needs saving - I can't tell you how much I totally hate anything to do with Bangel. I hate that relationship for all that it represents to the strong and independent women that this world needs.

RSS

Buffytube -fan site for Buffy the Vampire Slayer and the Whedonverse. Vids, Photos, Fanart, Forums, Individual Members Page and Gallery.

Latest Activity

cil domney commented on spuffylover2's group James Marsters Fans
12 hours ago
cil domney left a comment for Ms Miz
yesterday
Nyxella is now a member of BuffyTube - Slayerise Yourself.
yesterday
cil domney's photo was featured
yesterday

Groups

© 2017   Created by Chris Davis.   Powered by

Badges  |  Report an Issue  |  Terms of Service